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  • #16
    Well, it ended the only way it really could.

    I'm just as confused as Sarah is. No way should Adnan have been convicted on the basis of the evidence, but I'm not totally convinced he's being completely honest about what he does or doesn't remember. Makes me wonder if he and Jay were up to something pretty awful that day, I don't know. I've always been suspicious of the whole Jay and Jen stuff. Like, maybe they were the ones most involved. And now BAM there's a rando serial killer guy, yet that doesn't explain Jay AT ALL. The only thing I could think of was that Jay is definitely a liar (no doubt on that), but that he must be lying to protect someone else. Or lying because he was more scared of somebody else than he was of Adnan, so pinning it all on Adnan was the lesser evil to him.

    None of the Jay stuff really makes sense. The call log and his crazy meandering everchanging stories will haunt me forever.

    I don't think Hae Min Lee was killed in the afternoon right after school, though. And I really don't think the Best Buy was the location at all. So if Jay changed the location, there must be a reason . . . like he changed it to the Best Buy as a way to hide where it actually was, because if he told the real location someone else would be dragged into things. I mean, do we know where Stephanie was in all this? Maybe the only thing Stephanie wanted for her birthday was to watch Jay kill somebody. Okay, that's crazy. My head is crazy over this.

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    • #17
      Poor Stephanie! She gets hit with a lot of shrapnel on Reddit, too.

      I still think there wasn't enough information to convict.

      But the moment where Don basically says: The second you hear somebody you know is missing you recount the day, where you were, when you lost saw them, etc. It solidifies it all in your mind. I was like YES, DON. YES. That felt super true to me.

      For me, the Nisha call, etc. all that stuff was meaningless. The only tangible for me was that Jay knew where Hae's car was. That's the lynchpin. Everything else is a murky wash of he said/she said.

      The serial killer is a red herring (of sorts). I mean, it *could* be possible? But as Diedre said to Sarah: Big Picture! What's she saying is that introduces enough doubt to get the DNA tested. I was heartbroken for Adnan when he said nothing about this case could hurt him and he just wanted to get it tested to know everything. Ugh. So sad.

      Jay and Jen. It's all about Jay and Jen. I have no fucking idea what they were up to or why or how their day intersected with Hae's but it feels like the truth of it lies with them.
      6 YEAR COMMITMENT TO THE PAIN OF SHIPPING DE. I DONT COMMIT TO MY OWN LIFE AS MUCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND

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      • #18
        YOU GUYS.

        Jay gave an interview! His story is now totally different than it was at the trial:

        https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...ial-case-pt-1/



        The story he tells now is way more coherent . . . but of course, he's had a long time to think it over.

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        • #19
          Part two of the Jay interview: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...ve-jay-part-2/

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          • #20
            Ugh, I dunno what to make of any of this. I really don't understand how his story changes so thoroughly with each telling and the only through-line is: I helped Adnan after he killed Hae. I know memory is a tricky bitch and that we're not supposed to trust even our most-beloved or worst memories (because the more we go over them the more likely we are to change some elements) but GODDAMN his story is always a little different, always evolving. It makes me crazy. And that's even admitting I think he sounds super sincere! It's just baffling to me.
            6 YEAR COMMITMENT TO THE PAIN OF SHIPPING DE. I DONT COMMIT TO MY OWN LIFE AS MUCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND

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            • #21
              I will say that his retelling makes even less sense in some ways. There is even less reason for Adnan to involve him and so all of Adnan's behavior in bringing Jay into the middle of it is even weirder/crazier and borderline bizarre.
              6 YEAR COMMITMENT TO THE PAIN OF SHIPPING DE. I DONT COMMIT TO MY OWN LIFE AS MUCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND

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              • #22
                He's changed so many things in his attempt to find a coherent story! Honestly, I don't believe anything he says at all anymore. You just can't believe Jay.






                Have you been keeping up with Rabia's TL? She is ECSTATIC over this interview, because this might be exactly what they need to help Adnan win his appeal.

                This law blog breaks down all of Jay's lies (it's from a month ago, so it doesn't include all of his new interview timeline yet):


                http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/26/se...-adnans-guilt/



                It's a staggering amount of lies, especially once you add in all of the things he's changed in this new interview. I can't believe this guy was ever considered to be credible at all.


                And this is what it all boils down to:

                Jay’s testimony was in fact corroborated in significant respects:Jay’s testimony that he buried Hae was corroborated by
                the fact he knew where she was buried, and how she was positioned in the grave.

                Jay’s testimony that he ditched Hae’s car was corroborated by the fact that he knew where her car had been left.

                So even though Jay is not a credible witness, we can, with a fair amount of confidence, credit those two major portions of his testimony, as they could be verified by independent and external evidence (i.e., Jay’s story about the burial did in fact match what police discovered at the scene, Jay’s story about the car was true because he did in fact lead the police to it). As a result, Jay’s involvement in both the burial and disposing of the car are about the most solidly confirmed facts that we have in this case.

                But even if Jay’s testimony is corroborated in those respects, that does not mean his testimony provides credible evidence against Adnan. Because even though Jay’s testimony is corroborated as to his involvement in Hae’s murder, his testimony is not corroborated as to Adnan’s involvement in the murder.

                Not a single claim that Jay has made about Adnan’s culpability for Hae’s murder can be verified by independent and external evidence.


                Jay *had* to have been involved somehow in Hae Min's murder. Adnan? Zero credible evidence whatsoever.


                BOOM.


                I do not know if Adnan is guilty. But he should never have been convicted, and that is the sad truth.



                ETA Part 3 of Jay's interview: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...speaks-part-3/


                There are still so many questions I have about the whole Jay/Stephanie/Adnan relationship.
                Last edited by ophy; 01-01-2015, 03:54 PM.

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                • #23
                  While I am happy to have these interviews the journalist seems like a shithead, kinda: http://observer.com/2014/12/heres-ho...#ixzz3NWumsfS0

                  This comment made me laugh:

                  Toby Barlow
                  Natasha Vargas-Cooper's phrase "The Wire, which all of the delightful white liberals who are creaming over This American Life also adore and cherish" is the sort of line a screenwriter would put into the mouth of a young, idealistic, and driven journalist just before she commits some terrific act of hubris. I can't wait to see what happens next.
                  6 YEAR COMMITMENT TO THE PAIN OF SHIPPING DE. I DONT COMMIT TO MY OWN LIFE AS MUCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND

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                  • #24
                    Wow, she really does sound awful.

                    The 'patting herself on the back' she is doing is extra weird, considering how poor the actual interviewing side of the interview was.

                    But I am crossing my fingers that the people she talks to next are Jenn and Stephanie. Jenn must have so many keys to this puzzle, right?

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                    • #25
                      I mean, yes, but you wouldn't actually get Natasha to ask any pertinent questions because she clearly thinks she's above the material (if not the buzz it generates). For some reason her interview I posted above is what I imagine Zoe Barnes from House of Cards would say/do! Ha! As I was reading it I kept picturing Kate Mara!
                      6 YEAR COMMITMENT TO THE PAIN OF SHIPPING DE. I DONT COMMIT TO MY OWN LIFE AS MUCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND

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                      • #26
                        This means the Asia letter is back in play for Adnan's case!


                        http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/ad...eal#.ydbmVBQW0


                        Adnan Syed, the Baltimore man whose 2000 murder conviction was explored in last year’s wildly popular Serial podcast, won leave to appeal against his conviction on Friday in Maryland’s Court of Special Appeals.

                        Having exhausted his chances for standard court appeals, Syed petitioned the Court of Special Appeals in January 2014 to overturn the Baltimore City Circuit Court’s denial of “post conviction relief.” His application for leave to appeal was based on arguments that his trial attorney Cristina Gutierrez failed to seek a plea deal and to pursue a key witness in the case, Asia McClain, who claims to have been with Syed in Woodlawn Public Library on Jan. 13, 1999, when the state ruled he killed his ex-girlfriend, Hae Min Lee.

                        “The Application for Leave to Appeal be and hereby is granted,” Chief Judge Peter B. Krauser ruled on Friday.

                        The victory means Syed’s new attorney, C. Justin Brown, can present evidence to prove Gutierrez provided ineffective legal counsel, as well as evidence relating to McClain’s version of events.

                        McClain, who wrote an affidavit establishing an alibi for Syed in 2000, filed a new affidavit on Jan. 13 of this year, claiming trial prosecutor Kevin Urick convinced her not to participate in Syed’s trial.

                        McClain wrote that after being interviewed by Serial host Sarah Koenig and subsequently listening to the podcast, she “came to understand [her] importance to the case.”

                        “I realized I needed to step forward and make my story known to the court system,” she wrote.

                        The appeal will be held before a panel of judges in the Court of Special Appeals in June, with Syed’s brief due to be filed by March 16.




                        I wouldn't want to be Kevin Urick this year. Or ever, really, but especially not right now.


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                        • #27
                          Okay, so I assume anyone who cares about this already heard that Adnan's conviction was overturned, and he is going to be re-tried.


                          From Rabia:

                          https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...udry?CMP=fb_gu


                          Adnan Syed is innocent. Now find Hae Min Lee's real killer


                          Adnan’s conviction turned on two things – a state witness, Jay Wilds, who testified to having helped him bury the body, and Adnan’s cellphone records that the prosecution introduced to corroborate Wilds’ story of his and Adnan’s movements on 13 January 1999, the day the victim Hae Min Lee disappeared. The state argued the cell records could be used to track Adnan’s movements and back up Wilds’ story, pointing in particular to two incoming phone calls to Adnan’s phone around 7pm that night, both of which pinged a cell tower that covered the area where the victim’s body was found.

                          Wilds changed his story during the investigation and trial, and did so again most recently in an interview with the publication the Intercept. In that, he says the burial took place around midnight, negating any significance the cell records had in placing Adnan near the burial site around 7pm.

                          What further undermined the significance of the cell records was a fax cover sheet discovered by Susan Simpson, an attorney and the co-host of our podcast,Undisclosed. Simpson noticed the cover sheet clearly stated that incoming call information was not reliable for location of the phone. Adnan’s attorney at trial never caught this information, for whatever reason (including the possibility that the state didn’t give it to her). This issue was raised in Adnan’s recent appeal, and ultimately became the reason the judge threw his conviction out and ordered a new trial.

                          As it stands now, Adnan Syed is an innocent man. He is no longer convicted of any crime but remains charged with the murder of Hae Min Lee, just as he was before trial in 1999. He will remain innocent until and unless the State of Maryland can prove his guilt all over again.


                          Just remembering Jay's interviews gives me chills.



                          But they can’t because we can prove his innocence with the two pieces of factual information that are irrefutable: that Lee left school after 2.15pm and was intercepted by her killer by 3.30pm on 13 January 1999, after which the family realized something was wrong. Lee picked up her young cousin from elementary school every day by 3.30pm, but that day she never made it.

                          The second fact we have relates to the findings of the autopsy report. According to the medical examiner and other forensic pathologists who have reviewed the crime scene pictures and autopsy reports, Lee’s body showed fixed frontal lividity, the phenomenon in which, after death, all the blood pools to the part of the body closest to the ground. Such lividity could only be present if, after being killed, Lee was left in a face down position, stretched out, for between eight and 10 hours. When Lee’s body was found in Leakin Park, Baltimore, it was twisted and resting mostly on her right side. This means after her body was moved to the burial site after lividity had become permanent. Hae was not dumped in Leakin Park around 7pm. Her body was kept somewhere where it could lay flat for around 10 hours before it was moved to the park.
                          The killer had to both have the opportunity and means to intercept Hae by 3.30pm and to kill her, leave her body in a flat position somewhere private for eight to 10 hours, then move her later to Leakin Park.

                          Adnan could not have done these things.

                          This is very convincing to me! I've wavered about Adnan's innocence many times, but the lividity report is not something you can argue away.


                          Among the judge’s findings, which we’ve been attempting to get to court for many years, is a confirmation of the credibility of the testimony of an alibi witness, Asia McClain, who was never contacted by Adnan’s defense counsel. McClain testified before the appellate court that she was with Adnan in the public library until around 2.40pm. We have gathered evidence, which is not yet public, that confirms Adnan attended track practice that day and arrived for practice by 3.30pm. After seeing McClain, Adnan had to change for practice and then walk to the other side of the school for it. We have other witnesses who saw him on his way to track practice, meaning the time between when he was seen by McClain and by the time Lee was intercepted is largely accounted for.

                          The appellate judge further destroyed the state’s case regarding what happened in this timeframe in a lengthy footnote to his 59-page opinion. Judge Welch found that the cell records contradicted nearly every part of the state’s case and Wilds’ testimony in the time frame during which Lee was known to have disappeared.

                          This, coupled, with Adnan having no opportunity or means to store Lee’s body in a flat position (not in the boot of her small car as the state would have us believe) for up to 10 hours and then move it to the burial spot, is nearly enough for a finding of actual innocence.

                          That’s not all though. We know that every piece of forensic evidence collected pointed to Adnan’s innocence. From the hairs found Lee’s body, which did not match Adnan, to the dozens of soil samples taken from his clothing, shoes, car, and room, which returned negative results for matching soil from Leakin Park.



                          This is all very compelling, but I can't imagine what Hae Min Lee's family must be feeling right now.

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                          • #28
                            I always felt Adnan could be innocent, but it would mean Jay is ABSOLUTELY NOT because HE KNEW WHERE THE BODY WAS.

                            ALSO, if this lividity thing is legit, like why didn't Serial mention that? WTF is that?

                            I really thought it was a compelling experiment but one that felt like they were playing at being grown-ups in some ways in retrospect.
                            6 YEAR COMMITMENT TO THE PAIN OF SHIPPING DE. I DONT COMMIT TO MY OWN LIFE AS MUCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND

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                            • #29
                              I think they possibly killed her together. In a sense that one was present while the other did it in a some kind of a fit

                              Jay's wildly changing story is utterly incriminating but I don't think Adnan was naive. Hae's family is probably cursing the day Sarah Koenig was born. Oh and btw I browsed all the crime scene photos, they were on reddit along with other documents that weren't necessarily in the podcast. I don't remember much of it right now but it's probably still there if any of you wants to look

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                              • #30
                                You must remember this is finally back with a new season. This time it's all about Joan Crawford. I don't know much about her but I'm legit excited. First episode was great. http://www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com/episodes/

                                I've been listening to Cave comedy radio's Last podcast on the left to satisfy my twisted side. That's also a great choice but I do need more podcasts to take it seriously like the above mentioned Karina Longworth

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