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Veronica Mars: Sassy Teen Detective

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  • I admire your patience in reading their inerviews. I just rage.


    • I didn't cry over Logan's death* until I watched Jason Dohring cry over Logan's death. He definitely didn't want to go!

      * b/c they did such a terrible job of shoehorning it in there that I thought it was a joke.

      Holy shit, poor guy. He can barely get his words out. This just makes is so much worse to me!

      Also Jason, from THR:

      Did you and Kristen talk about it much in advance?

      "Yeah, we did. We'd just look at each other on set every so often and be like, "This is fun," and she'd be like "Aww, Jay ..." And Rico [Colantoni] would be crying, it was crazy! My last moment of filming was pretty sad. It was just bittersweet, obviously after playing 70 hours of a character, for the end to come. I’ve gone a lot of ways with that character, I’ve gotten to do a pretty incredible amount with him, so I can’t feel shortchanged by any means. But as far as just, you put that much of your soul into something, or your creative energy, and then it’s done."

      "Any time you do something creative with a group of people like a play or a show or a movie, there’s just something that happens between you all. It’s weird, and I haven’t experienced that anywhere else in life, except for maybe a trying or traumatic experience where you’re kind of held together by what you’ve been through. It’s special. There’s a real family aspect to the show, and I was definitely feeling that, and feeling some deep sadness at the end. But I'm super happy for them, I had the best time on the show, and it was probably the best character I've ever played."

      You know, Rob and KB go off and do other things and have had real careers outside of VM, but Jason doesn't really get a lot of work. But he's really really good at this ONE thing, being Logan Echolls. And he was so sweet and so excited about the kickstarter giving him another chance to be part of this! so that makes it particularly sad to me. (Even though I'm fully aware that now he has to go live on his dad's Neopets millions boo hoo.)

      Okay, and because I take my job as a hunter/gatherer on this board seriously, here's a round up of the interviews so far:


      “We want there to be more ‘Veronica Mars’ adventures,” series creator Rob Thomas tells Variety, “and you want your lead detective in your noir show to have opportunities for romance — you don’t want to play this soap opera of the boy back home. It felt like cutting off a limb to save the [rest].”

      Yep, there's going to be grim sex in motels with randos in S5, oh joy.

      Thomas admits that killing off such an important person in Veronica’s life was not an easy decision, but ultimately he felt the “emotional wallup” the audience would feel — especially after the couple had celebrated such a joyous occasion — was necessary in raising the stakes of the show. “I’m not trying to be tricky, I’m just trying to make it land with as much weight. It should pain them,” he says.

      Yep, we were right, it was fully intended to be Benioff/Weiss style cruel shock porn.

      Telling Dohring he would no longer be a part of the show, should it come back for future seasons, was also difficult for Thomas, who shares he will forever love Dohring “as a person, as an actor” and be grateful for “what he’s done for the show.” He compares the conversation with the actor about his death scene to a breakup: “It’s not you, it’s me,'” Thomas says. “Intellectually, Jason got it — he’s told me that several times — but it still stings.”


      Does Rob actually think there would even BE a Veronica Mars in 2019 if not for Jason's insanely good portrayal of Logan? Because if you actually think about it, there wouldn't be! Not that people didn't love KB's Veronica, but the majority got addicted enough to keep pushing for more because of the Dohrbell chemistry and how compelling Logan was to watch on screen. Jason was a huge contributor to Rob's little empire, and they have treated him like he's disposable.

      As the years went on, and the show moved to the CW and then also became a fan-funded feature film, the characters matured but still felt the pulls of their youth, which included early relationships. The audience often remained more focused on those relationships than the issues the show dove into. Now, Thomas is eager to move the show into a different space — one that focuses on season-specific mysteries — and he feels that “if they’re all tied to Neptune and tied to her high school boyfriend, it’s hard to sell people on the idea of coming to this show for the mystery of it.”

      Still, Thomas didn’t want to completely blindside his audience with something bad happening, so it was important to him to see the fourth season with a “sense of foreboding.”

      You know what would have made it easier to 'sell' the show? If you were planning on keeping it like the actual show people fell in love with instead of blowing it up for something a helluva lot less compelling.

      Thomas admits that he did not want to spend time exploring Veronica’s immediate grieving period on-screen this season, nor would he want to return to that period in the future.

      “In the aftermath, we couldn’t write a joke in the show,” he explains. “And the kind of snappy, quick-witted stuff is our bread and butter.” But should the show go forward, “she’s still feeling the impact of Logan’s death.”

      We didn't get a funeral scene or any proper closure because you don't know how to NOT do jokes? WUT.

      Similarly, Thomas would want to keep “an element” of the show’s signature class commentary theme in future seasons, though, currently he says he is most “intrigued by the idea of putting Veronica in an Agatha Christie-style murder mystery.”

      Don't you dare drag Agatha into this shit show!

      Of course, Thomas admits he is nervous to hear the audience’s reaction but stands by ending the season with Logan’s murder and Veronica leaving Neptune a year later “the right move.”

      “Time may prove me wrong,” he admits. “But I feel like Veronica’s a great character. I’m hoping it can give the show longevity if we strip it of its teen soap elements and just make her bad-ass private detective.”

      In this case 'time' was basically 8 hrs after the series dropped on Hulu.

      (I realize there will very well might be an audience for his cynical detective show for big boys but it sure as hell isn't going to be the SAME audience, given the amount of goodwill he has squandered here.)

      TV Guide:

      Veronica Mars Creator Explains That Gut-Wrenching Death: 'Even My Family May Turn on Me'


      "It feels like I placed a bet. And I may lose that bet or I may win that bet," Thomas told TV Guide. "If you never get to see another Veronica Mars episode because the fans hated it and turned on the show, then I lost the bet. If we get to do more and it becomes a long-running Veronica Mars detective series that we get to do every once in a while, then I think I won the bet."

      When did you first start considering that you would kill Logan off and why did you decide that was the right decision for the show?

      Rob Thomas: "We knew long before we wrote any of the episodes. We knew it in the pitch; when we pitched the show around, it was always part of the original pitch. And I think the reason is — Kristen and I, when we talked about doing this as a short-order mystery, like some sort of six-to-ten-episode mystery, we talked about wanting to be able to do this sort of like Sherlock;whenever we could all get together, let's bang out a Veronica Mars mystery. So the hope we have going into these eight episodes is that we get to do more of them. And my belief is that those will be better with Veronica Mars as the lead of a noir detective series who does not have a boyfriend or a husband. That's the reason."

      "And I love Jason Dohring and I love Logan Echolls as a character in the show. But this felt like cutting off an arm to save the body. Now, if we never get to do any more of these because the fans hate me, then it was a mistake. If we get to do more of them, I'm gonna be more excited about doing the show with Veronica as a single woman. The show started out as sort of a teen soap-noir detective show hybrid. And in order for us to keep doing these, I think it needs to become a detective show — a noir, mystery, detective show — and those elements of teenage soap need to be behind us. I sort of viewed these eight episodes as a bridge to what Veronica Mars might be moving forward."

      Say 'noir' one more fucking time, I fucking dare you.

      So Logan is 100%, for sure dead?

      Thomas: "Yeah, and you are not the first person who has asked that question. I did not mean to leave any room for second-guessing that. Yes, he is dead.

      Jon Snow on Game of Thrones and Michael on Jane the Virgin both seemingly died onscreen but both eventually returned to the shows alive. Yet the cast and creators told viewers these characters were dead and gone. Given all this, do you understand why some fans might have a hard time accepting Logan's actually dead no matter what you or Jason say?

      Thomas: "I do, yes! It would have been an unpleasant body to show. Veronica is dealing with this a year later in the denouement of the series. It would be pretty awful of Logan to just be hiding somewhere or for Veronica to be lying to her therapist and thereby to the audience for the entire closing of the show. But yeah, I did not mean for that to be debatable. He's definitely dead."

      There's goes that last sliver of hope!

      Do you think you're prepared for the fan reaction to Logan's death?

      Thomas: "I'm terrified of it. It feels like I placed a bet. And I may lose that bet or I may win that bet. If you never get to see another Veronica Mars episode because the fans hated it and turned on the show, then I lost the bet. If we get to do more and it becomes a long-running Veronica Marsdetective series that we get to do every once in a while, then I think I won the bet. But there's a chance the fans won't stand for it. I knew that going in. It has been a running joke, certainly since I pitched it, that I should disappear from the country the week this comes out."

      Yeah, it might get a little intense on Twitter.

      Thomas: "Trust me, Twitter will not be on in the Thomas household for a while once this gets released. Even my cousin's wife texted me the other day saying, "Please, please give Veronica a happy ending. Let her marry Logan and live happily ever after please." Even my family may turn on me, is what I'm saying."

      Also? They act like there aren't real people behind those tweets, like twitter is just a place where things happen that have no connection to how people actually feel.

      Why did you decide to have Logan and Veronica get married but then kill him off so soon after the wedding that she was even still in her wedding dress?

      Thomas: "To make it hurt worse? Here's the thing: Once a mystery is solved in a mystery show, you don't have many pages left. You can't solve the mystery and then have another episode to see what Veronica does in the aftermath of that mystery. You solve the mystery, you've got about eight pages left to play with, so that's when it had to happen."

      All I hear is "Because I legitimately didn't know how to write it any better?" I mean, the mystery was already kinda crappy and full of holes, so yeah you could have cut some pages to do LOGAN's FUCKING DEATH a wee bit better, perhaps. Just a suggestion.

      The death of Lilly, as Veronica put it in this season, hardened her. How will the way she responds to this and evolves in the wake of losing Logan compare to how she did after Lilly's death?

      Thomas: "It will be tough for her to put many eggs in a romantic basket. She found it difficult to get to a place of commitment with Logan, a guy she'd known for 25 years, 23 years. I think finding love is going to be off the table for a while. I think it only hardens her sort of already pretty intense zeal for justice. I also think fans have tended to respond most positively to Veronica when she's been kicked down the hardest. So my hope is that watching Veronica get back in the fray will be therapeutic for both Veronica and the audience."

      The more he talks the more I realize that he honestly misunderstood so very much about what made his show special and what made the audience for his show special, and that makes me sad!

      We do see Veronica go to therapy in the finale. Should we assume that Veronica will try to continue and follow through on what Logan had been asking her to do all season?

      Thomas: "I haven't given that much thought. Here's what I do know: That ours is not a show that would handle grief well. Being sly and funny is sort of our bread and butter, and one of the reasons I like a year passing between Logan's death and the end of the show is that we can give Veronica a whole year to grieve. And when we pick her up, we can pick her up back to being righteous Veronica and not have to live in this world of grief. She will still be hurt by the death of Logan, but there won't be a ton of navel-gazing in whatever the next Veronica Mars adventure is."

      So no change and no growth for Veronica on the horizon ever, got it. Really really not making me want to watch S5, huh.

      The books and this miniseries both raised doubts as to whether Veronica being a P.I. in Neptune was the best path for her. Do you believe Veronica can find her happiness elsewhere? And if so, what might that look like?

      Thomas: "One of the things that I've given a lot of thought to, and it's one of the reasons why we make these occasional references to the eight column inches she got in Vanity Fair, is that I want people from across the country to be able to hire Veronica. I want there to be an excuse for people to seek her out. I don't want to limit the show to Neptune. I have a couple of ideas for what I'm noodling with for the next Veronica Mars adventure and neither of them take place in Neptune."

      How do you think a different setting will change the tone of Veronica Mars?

      Thomas: "One of the reasons, particularly, a next outing might take place outside of Neptune is because, as I said, I feel like we were a teen soap-mystery hybrid, and the next time out I want to be full throttle "this is a detective show." One of the ideas that I have is an Agatha Christie sort of murder in a manor house-style mystery, only modernized a bit. The next one is going to lean very heavily into "we're a detective show. We can exist in any environment doing any case." These eight episodes on Hulu were intended as a bridge into that sort of world."

      Logan aside, so many of fans' favorite characters are still based in Neptune. So if you do get to do more seasons and see Veronica outside of that world, are you hoping to find ways to bring in Keith (Enrico Colantoni) or Wallace (Percy Daggs III) or Weevil (Francis Capra) so we still would get to see them again?

      Thomas: "I'm not sure. Particularly on the next one. Yeah. Particularly on the next one, the ideas that I have — and it hasn't been sold and I haven't written anything — but the couple of ideas that I'm noodling would not... They would be away from Neptune."

      No Neptune, no Keith, no Wallace, no Weevil . . sounds like such a fun new show y'all are putting together! WHY EVEN BOTHER CALLING IT VERONICA MARS AT ALL.

      Do you think Veronica needed something as massive as Logan's death to inspire her to actually change her life and leave Neptune?

      Thomas: "Yes? I guess the answer to that is yes. Particularly after saying yes to Logan's marriage proposal. I felt like when Veronica said yes to Logan, "I'll marry you," that it was saying yes to the status quo. It was saying yes to Neptune, yes to staying where they were, yes to possibly having kids someday maybe. It was, "You know what? I'm good here." It was all encapsulated in the marriage proposal. You know, it would have been tricky for me, I think, to take mysteries on the road. Like, "I have a boyfriend back home that I'm calling at night." It just felt uninteresting to me."

      Logan and Veronica came to be such a defining aspect of the show. Is there anything you would say to fans who are doubting whether they'd want to watch a version of Veronica Mars without Logan?

      Thomas: "Please do. [Laughs.] I don't know, if that destroyed their view of the show, then that's certainly within their prerogative. I hope it didn't, but I'm placing this bet and I know I have to live with the consequences. I know that's the case. I'm prepared. I hope that the bet pays off and we get to do more and it's a fun series moving forward. I can tell them that it hurt me too. It was not an easy decision. It was not a decision taken lightly. If I thought this was going to be our final Veronica Mars ever, I probably would not have killed him. But yeah, if they feel like the reason they tuned in was for that Veronica-Logan relationship, then maybe they won't watch anymore. I tend to feel like, with television, the romantic conclusion is the finale. When the couple gets together — Ross and Rachel, whatever it is — usually marks the end of the series and I just don't want Veronica Mars to be over."

      But . . . you literally could have written that? You didn't have to take such a hugely unnecessary risk? You could have split them up but left him alive so you could have your little roadshow detective stories AND have Veronica and Logan reunite a few seasons later like literally a gajillion other tv shows have done lawd I'm so tired. We get an ending that actually is ruining the old episodes and even the movie for people all because Rob felt like like keeping Logan alive wasn't interesting to him. To HIM. Well, congrats! Because this was the only way to keep VM interesting to you, the show is now over for a large percentage of your former audience.

      It makes my head HURT that Rob is going to dismiss people criticizing this season as just shippers who only watched the show for that that alone. It was the balance that most people liked, between the Veronica the wisecracking detective and Veronica the woman trying to navigate emotional waters as well, and a Veronica without the latter half is honestly only half as interesting. I don't think he will ever get that.

      E Online:

      Mostly just the same as above, but with a more direct plea:

      What does Rob Thomas have to say to you, the grieving fan?You're upset, and he knows that. Thomas said he planned to unplug his computer the day the show launched, but hopes viewers understand his reasoning for the big shakeup.

      "I suppose the message is the one I just gave: I did it because I think for the ongoing success of Veronica Mars, the franchise, it's going to be more sustainable, more interesting than Veronica having a husband or boyfriend. That is what I think, they might not go with me on that ride, but I hope they do," Thomas said.

      Just . . . just stop. Having a partner in your life does NOT make a person or a character less interesting. It doesn't mean their story is 'over'. My life didn't stop when I married my husband, beeksus.

      TV Line:

      Veronica Mars overlord Rob Thomas knows he has a metaphorical target on his back. After all, he’s the guy who murdered Logan Echolls in the final moments of Veronica Mars‘ eight-episode Hulu revival.

      “I’m not worried about my personal safety,” he says with a nervous laugh, “But I will confess that I am really worried about fan reaction. I’m absolutely prepared for a percentage of fans to have a strong reaction against what we did. That, I’m fine with. But I will have made a really bad bet if, en masse, the fans turn on the show. That would certainly be a tough lesson to learn.”

      Real life footage of Rob right about now:

      TVLINE | Did you get any pushback from Hulu or Warner Bros.?

      No. But the Hulu executives [attended] the final mix of the final episode and they looked and me and they said, “Wow, you’re going to get murdered for this.” It was [intended] more as gallows humor than any reconsideration of the plan. People were on board.

      Ha ha ha ha.

      So! I think part of the problem overall is 1) he didn't give Logan a 'good' death, it was a stupid cheap one, so people are experiencing many levels of anger -- not just the 'you killed my fave character' anger, but 'the way you killed my fave character taught me I can't trust you anymore' and 2) there is absolutely nothing in this follow up press or in his explanations that makes the new version of the show sound appealing to the kind of viewers he just alienated.

      It's like they had no real plan at all how to handle the fall out beyond just staying off the interwebz afterwards, as thought that would protect them from any and all consequences.


      • I'm totally alone in here, but don't mind me! This is my therapy thread now.

        So! The Rolling Stone interview is similar to the ones above, but Rob also talks about the movie in contrast to S4:

        How would you compare the approach to making this new season to the process of writing the movie?

        "The movie was intentional nostalgia and fan service. It was a fan-funded movie. It was like making a list of all of the things that we thought fans wanted to see, and trying to build a mystery plot that would allow us to get to those bits of dessert. That was what we set out to do. These episodes are a bridge to what Veronica Mars is going forward. If we started off with something that was half teen soap, half noir-mystery show, these episodes are taking us to a place where we are pretty strictly a detective show."

        When you set out to do the Kickstarter back then, did you realize that it would make you feel compelled to go as fan service-y as you wound up going?

        "Honestly, it’s a little hard to remember the specific choices. I knew there was a chance we would never see Veronica again, so there were certain things I wanted to do. The ending scene of Veronica sitting down in that chair in Keith’s office, I thought, “If she never exists after this, I’m happy with fans believing that’s where she is.” That said, I know one of the first things I thought of, the timing is pretty much right that we could believe there was a 10-year reunion. The harder part was believing Veronica would go to it. And if we do that, I can knock off a lot of the people I want to catch up with. And certain things like, “We want to see Veronica punch Madison Sinclair, let’s see how we can do that.” That’s not ordinarily how I would write a story."

        How would you compare the tone of this new season to the movie?

        "It’s not as insidery. There’s more emphasis on the mystery. The movie was fluffier. There’s certain things that we want to be consistent. It’s a real weird balancing act. We’re trying to use all the elements of noir while being pretty jokey. The templates that [co-writer] Diane [Ruggiero-Wright] and I talked about when we were writing this version were FX’s Fargo and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang."

        Now we come to the diametric opposite of fan service. Why did you decide to kill off Logan?

        "It’s like severing the arm to save your life. I tried to imagine writing Veronica Mars mysteries the way we want to tell them going forward and her still having a boyfriend or husband waiting back home. The fan service is that they actually got married. I know that sounds funny, but I feel like the fans would forgive that more than if Logan became such an asshole that they broke up, or if Veronica had cheated on Logan with Leo. The latter would have been more likely than having Logan revert to bum fights. It’s just hard to imagine a detective show with a 35-year-old woman with a boyfriend. I just don’t want to write that. I love Jason Dohring and I love everything he’s brought to the show. I’m sure I will work with Jason again at some point in my career. But I feel like for this show to work as a detective show, it has to be with Veronica as a single woman."

        Because that’s the nature of the genre?

        "I think it’s more interesting to write. If you can’t have your detective have romantic interests, it’s hard. And it teeters on phony trying to get Logan involved in the case somehow to keep him present. If he’s just going to be the boy she goes home to at night, that’s less interesting to me. I can’t say that it’s impossible. But it didn’t appeal to me as much."

        This just flabbergasts me. Just say you want Veronica to fuck randos instead of her husband because you think it's sexier, wevs. Oh and we APOLOGIZE for making you feel pressured to make something audience wanted to see with the movie, I kinda thought that was the whole point of entertainment, though?

        How are you expecting the fans to react to that explosion?

        "Well, I’m terrified. It’s placing a bet. And I don’t know whether we’ll win or not. No idea. It’s possible that the fans hate me and give up on the show. I hope that’s not the case. I’ve talked now to a number of reporters who watched the whole thing and said they were a fan for a long time, and, “I was so shocked and devastated in that moment, but I understand why you did it.” Other than that, I have no virgin opinions. It was part of the pitch, though, to Hulu. It has been part of the plan. Jason knew going in; we didn’t blindside him with that last script. But I felt like it’s the thing I needed to do to make the show the thing I want it to be if we do it in the future. If this happens to be the last thing we ever see of Veronica Mars and I devastated the audience with the death of Logan, then I feel a bit bad about it! The only way I feel good is if we get to do more. If we don’t, then I fucked that up."

        I remember conversations we had after the original series finale, with the downer ending where Veronica screws up Keith’s shot at being re-elected sheriff. Your argument was that this is a noir show and it works best when it gives the audience what the story needs rather than what the fans want.

        "Right. But what I will admit is I want to make more of them. And that Season Three ending meant we got to make more. If I had given it a nice bow, we never would have seen more Veronica Mars. At the time that I wrote the Season Three finale, the CW was telling us, “Hey, you might want to tie this up. There’s a good chance you may not be coming back.” And that was one where I fought it: “We’re going to go down swinging, if that’s the case.” But I think that feeling of there not being a conclusion, of leaving Veronica midstream, was why we got to do more. I like bittersweet endings, and the movie ended bittersweet, even though it felt there was more of a conclusion with Logan leaving and her dad in the hospital. If there are no more, I can live with where this season left off story-wise. I will feel a little bit dumb for making this big call if it ends up being the death of the series. Creatively, I’m still fine with where this ends. But as a person who would like to make more, that’ll leave me kicking myself for a while."

        I just . . . but this was so freaking fracking uncreative. It made no sense narratively for there to even be a bomb in Veronica's car when even the most incompetent of police and or PI would have secured the scene, including her car. It made no sense except cruelty to kill Veronica's husband while Veronica was still in her wedding dress. Creatively, this was a bust anyway.

        Also? the Season 3 ending suuuuucked on every level. Even creatively.

        Anyway, there's a lot more in the RS interview about the mystery story and the casting of S4 so go read that if that kind of thing interests you, I'm only here to work through my RAGE. But this!

        Finally, one of the things that impressed me about this season, and going back to the original Lilly Kane mystery in Season One, is the way you’re able to juggle a bunch of potential suspects at once. A lot of other long-form mystery series just hit one red herring at a time, and it gets really predictable. How do you guys make it work?

        "It’s the hardest thing about the show, because neither Diane nor I would consider ourselves mystery writers in that sense. Whenever I hire a staff, I’m looking for people who can write funny, interesting character stuff. So it’s a whole lot of bozos in a room who do not know how to break mysteries. It was really particularly hard this year, because when you’re doing 22 episodes, you can introduce a lot of red herrings. With this, there are only five or six characters in the piece who you can imagine being the guilty party. With fewer suspects, it becomes harder to have quality red herrings on the chess board. The thing that we always do at the beginning of the year is figure out who did it, why they did it, and break the show trying to find ways that other people could have done it."


        That said! If Rob really didn't want to do a break-up storyline, there was literally no reason why Logan couldn't have solved mysteries WITH Veronica. They could have been the new gender swapped Thin Man. That could have worked and would have felt fresh and would have been FUN and so much joy! I'm just saying, they had other options for moving forward and doing something new. Veronica didn't have to end up bitter and alone and tragically tough to be interesting in future storylines and that is the hill upon which I die!


        • That said! If Rob really didn't want to do a break-up storyline, there was literally no reason why Logan couldn't have solved mysteries WITH Veronica. They could have been the new gender swapped Thin Man. That could have worked and would have felt fresh and would have been FUN and so much joy!
          OMG take my money. I would have loved to see that. Or a Cary Grant/Rosalind Russell dynamic in His Girl Friday (much as he loves to bore on about noir, this show was always 40% screwball.

          Poor JDoh! he really loved that character. Although he has less going on and isn't universally beloved like KBell, he will definitely come out of this with his reputation intact.

          And I think you're right: Rob Thomas does not understand what made VM special. Veronica solving a random mystery outside Neptune, with no Keith, Logan, Wallace, Weevil etc. Good luck with that.


          • So, it never stops amazing me when the creators of the show have such a different take on why the show works than the actual VIEWERS. Because the mysteries are kinda dumb. And often poorly resolved. Before the new season dropped, my friends and I were all: OMG I LOVE THIS SHOW SO MUCH and then when I noted how bad the mysteries were everybody was like: Oh, yeah, they didn't even introduce the killer of Lilly Kane until something like 7 episodes into the first season? Yeah, that's was bad.

            Which is just a preamble to say: I hate to hear creators talk about their work. I know that’s a little odd, but I rarely find it adds anything helpful or useful for me. I don’t need Rob Thomas to explain his vision for the show or where he's taking it. I WATCHED the show, and I am completely capable of figuring it out as its own piece of art. In this case, it sounds like he has no idea what the actual strengths of the show are, no idea what his own weaknesses are, and no idea what kept people coming back for more.

            So he wants to do a VMars without having to get the whole band back together, I guess. Just he and KBell and some short-term one-off mystery where she’s a hired gun for a handful of episodes now and again? Ok. And why can’t he do that with Logan alive in the world somewhere? Because he already did that with the two books and those were well-received by fans. I would have believed they broke up because I had the funny idea that the character was going somewhere? Like maybe she'd be super late to the game but it seemed like they were setting up for her to grow and change because she was The Worst Person this season.

            So, having read all of the above, I have NO idea what Logan's death has to do with any of RT’s plans since the death will not be used to advance Veronica's life or change her character in any way. It was just for shock value and to get Veronica to leave Neptune (Did you know that once you're in a relationship you can't travel for work anymore and still have an interesting day on the job? This is news to me as a person who sometimes travels for work). How does Logan being dead change anything except whether or not she fucks other people during the mystery arc without feeling bad about it? RT *does* seem to want to put KBell in explicit sex scenes, tho, so maybe that played a role in this calculation (seriously SUPER STRANGE in retrospect).

            Also, MUCH of what the fans love about VMars is the weird place-specific continuity. You feel like Veronica could happen upon people she met once a couple of seasons ago at any time (and SHE DOES, ON THE REGULAR). And maybe that’s a burden for the writers or something but that’s a KEY element to the series that makes you feel rewarded for paying attention. And … it also creates a “It’s Chinatown, Jake.” vibe to the series that they *could* lean in to. And if Logan had died in almost ANY other way, it might have been more satisfying. He has a dangerous job but dies because NOBODY SECURED A CRIME SCENE HE WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH? What?

            And FUCK RT for acting like this is just about romance. Was Logan not a fully-realized character to him? Because, HONESTLY, he was often more fully realized than Veronica herself, which is WHY he means so much to the fans. His abs are a bonus, not the selling point. The weird flickering rage and longing and desperation that seemed to constantly play under JD's face in the first two seasons is what made people care about him. Compare his performance to that of Teddy, FFS. Yes, the romance drove that home. But I think most people would agree that they often didn't have the healthiest pairing. If they broke up because he got emotionally healthy, I think a huge chunk of fans could live with that.

            RT's take on fan service is also terrible. He truly seems to hate the shippers without realizing that not all of us are just HAPPY ENDING bots. I would have MUCH preferred Veronica break up with Logan and, yes, dumb fans would have wailed but that’s just angsty wailing not Annie Wilkes YOU CHEATED AND I WANT TO HOBBLE YOU wailing.

            Like you said, he gave Logan a TERRIBLY STUPID death. Logan died only so that Veronica wouldn’t be held back by having a loving partner waiting for her back home? But she won’t be growing or changing and evolving in ANY way because what fans really want to see is a kick-ass mystery in a mansion with a snarky woman who might fuck a suspect? WTF IS HE EVEN TALKING ABOUT.

            Also, call me crazy, but if you want to make more Veronica Mars maybe LAUNCH A CHARACTER-GUTTING MYSTERY (like WHO KILLED LOGAN ECHOLS?) instead of having her drive off to solve random mysteries with characters we don’t care about. WHO WANTS TO WATCH A SHOW LIKE THAT? Does any adult in 2019 under the age of 55 want to watch Veronica Mars: The Equalizer? WTF.

            And he wants to hire people to write characters but then NOT have any of the established characters come back? WTF IS HE TALKING ABOUT. All of this made that ending so much worse.
            It’s just really honestly so tiring and emotionally draining to have to get upset over reality constantly.


            • OH, and real talk: HOW did it not occur to them that dumb fans would assume Logan is not really dead? JFC.
              It’s just really honestly so tiring and emotionally draining to have to get upset over reality constantly.


              • I love when he admits they’re bad at writing mysteries. So they’re going to double down and make the mysteries the point of the show? It’s idiotic.


                • This is terrible, I feel so bad for you all. I AM generally a happy ending bot but any of your scenarios sound way better than what you got. Also, I love the Thin Man movies - the interesting and more difficult thing to do is to write a sustainable, believable loving or love/hate relationship and that’s why they take the easy route of breaking them up or killing them off. Cowards. Writers can never be trusted and that’s why I’m dead against reboots of beloved shows.


                  • Also, isn’t the state of the real world shitty enough without deliberately making vast swathes of people unhappy over something they feel so passionately about when it isn’t even necessary, just because it’s ‘creatively more interesting’ (easier). Sheesh.


                    • I don’t support commenting directly on actor instagrams, but...Is the online disdain loud enough yet? Loud enough for RT to realize he might want to rethink his whole fucking life? Are there also articles out there written by other pompous men who defend all this lazy nonsense? Now I know TV revivals are just showrunners getting the opportunity to actively misunderstand and insult their audience.


                      • I will never ask for another season of anything in my life.


                        • Also, isn’t the state of the real world shitty enough without deliberately making vast swathes of people unhappy over something they feel so passionately about when it isn’t even necessary, just because it’s ‘creatively more interesting’ (easier).

                          THAT'S NOIR BAYBEEE.

                          but...Is the online disdain loud enough yet?

                          I'd like to say yeah? I mean, it is really lopsided with far more people shouting CON than PRO. And the CON people are actually just the tip of an iceberg, because the majority of marshmallows I've encountered are actually being pretty quiet where anyone can see it (mostly because they don't want to be mansplained to about noir) but have taken their rage underground to a discord server and private chats. So for every one person yelling on twitter about Rob ruining their life under the official tags, there's probably twenty more whispering it where Rob can't see.

                          It's also hard to know how much of this reaction TPTB had already factored in. Rob and KB both said something along the lines of not planning on being on the internet at all, because they knew there would be SOME backlash, so it's hard to know how much of what they end up seeing will just be counted in the 'some'. Like, "oh but we expected this" and so they don't take the scope of it seriously. There is definitely enough 'this season was a MASTERPIECE' chatter out there as well, so if that's the only kind of thing being sent to their notice, they might not have absorbed the extent of the backlash yet.

                          It's real BIG though. They won't be able to escape it for too long. Rob's interviews absolutely made things worse, too.

                          Seeing this gif a lot:

                          . . . and um, how gross is this now?

                          By joking about it back then, he made it clear that it was a ridiculous thing that was never gonna happen, and that's kind of an implied contract, my dude.

                          And where have you ever seen TV Guide actually asking if a tv show SHOULD get another season?

                          Like, that's a real departure right there. The senior editor of TV Guide kinda thinks it SHOULDN'T.


                          Should Veronica Mars Continue After Season 4?

                          . . ..

                          Thomas said he wants to continue Veronica Mars as a Sherlock-esque series, one that can hopefully return with new seasons whenever Thomas and Bell are able to make their schedules align. This hypothetical version of the series would find Veronica solving different cases around the country, and a significant other for the show's heroine apparently doesn't fit into that plan. But the power of the Logan-Veronica relationship and what it meant to fans of the show should not be underestimated. To assume that viewers would even be interested in a Logan-less Veronica Mars almost feels like a fundamental misreading of the fandom.

                          Of course, this isn't meant to suggest that Veronica Mars cannot exist without Logan — that would be to belittle Veronica and her many achievements; although Logan clearly left an indelible mark on her, Veronica has accomplished plenty on her own without him, and she will no doubt find similar success in the future, especially if she stays in therapy and learns healthy methods of coping with her trauma. But at the same time, Logan is still a major character who was both deeply loved by Veronica and greatly beloved by a number of the show's fans. His sudden death and the reasoning behind it feels like a betrayal that becomes even more painful when you consider Logan's secretive military career would have been an easy way of writing him out of future installments without piercing the hearts of fans everywhere.

                          Further explaining the difficult decision to kill off Logan, Thomas revealed he worries that whenever a show reaches a romantic conclusion — like, say, a wedding — it also reaches a finale of sorts, and he's not ready for Veronica Mars to be over. This argument not only feels a bit dated, but it also feels a little misguided when a show like Friday Night Lights has already proven that a happy couple in a lasting, loving relationship can make for compelling television, or when series like Bones, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and Parks and Recreation have shown us that will-they, won't-they couples can get together without signaling the end of the road.

                          . . .

                          Veronica Mars helped to usher in the tidal wave of revivals and reboots that is still washing over Hollywood some five years after the fan-funded feature film hit theaters, and when this second revival was first announced last year, I wrote that the show should also be the series that puts an end to that trend too. It was a plea in favor of originality at a time when original ideas felt about as impossible as a unicorn. I still believe this should be the end of the revival trend, but now it's because this is a classic case of the writers thinking so much about whether or not they could do something that they didn't stop to consider if they should.

                          In the end, we got eight more episodes of Veronica Mars, but it came at a deadly cost, and now we live in a world where Logan Echolls is dead and Veronica Mars is leaving Neptune.

                          Was it really worth it?

                          She also said this on twitter:

                          I think she's right that Hulu will give them an S5 (unless the people saying they canceled Hulu after the finale are actually significant numbers), but they will have gotten that S5 based on S4 viewer numbers, and they lured in viewers by leaning so heavy on the LoVe angle, and that's a trick that won't work twice.

                          The reality is that all of this conversation has piqued the interest of the kind of assholes who like to watch shows JUST to 'own the whiny feminists' so they might even be able to ride this on to an S6, or whatever. Who knows, maybe it actually will live on forever this way!

                          Popgeek told people straight up to not even watch S4, let alone a S5:

                          Do Not Watch Veronica Mars Season Four

                          . . . .

                          Any hype or enthusiasm you have for seeing Veronica again will be smashed into the ground by the finale episode. After you see how this season ends, you will feel like absolute garbage, and you will wish you’d heeded my warning. You’ll be a much happier person without it.

                          . . .

                          Imagine a plot twist so infuriating that it it sours every single episode that came before it. A twist that makes all the time you invested in the series and its characters worth nothing. Looking up creator Rob Thomas’ official, tone-deaf response to the backlash will not quell your rage. He does admit that he considered taking a vacation to Europe the week of this season’s release, so….the man knows he’s guilty.

                          If you want to spend the rest of your summer feeling somewhat pleasant, enjoying the weather, and NOT stabbing a photo of Kristen Bell repeatedly with an ice pick, do yourself a favor and skip this season. You’ll be grateful you did. Remember, you were warned.

                          A week ago, all the geek pubs were saying how great it was that Veronica Mars was the little show that kept on coming back from the dead, and now it's like . . . KILL IT WITH FIRE.

                          People are also definitely waking up to the fact that Rob basically used the old fanbase to try to launch a new show, but did so in the least respectful way possible. And there's definitely a sense out there as well that he used the old cast members in a disrespectful way as well.

                          And KB is coming in for that part of the backlash as well:


                          I mean . . . look at those faces. Ugh.

                          I don't think it was her idea originally, but she's been working to sell it.


                          "It is sad to have to have a sacrificial lamb in order to keep the show pumping, but Jason's so gracious about taking one for the team," star and executive producer Kristen Bell told ET on Friday when she and her Veronica Mars co-stars stopped by the Comic-Con video suite. "But we love each other so much. We were mourning him on set."

                          WERE YOU? BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T THERE, I GUESS.

                          And fans are also upset with her also for saying that VMars is the new Game of Thrones where nobody's safe. Yeah well, you are safe? So . . .

                          Poor Jason!

                          ET: What did Rob tell you about this season of Veronica Mars, since it ends quite tragically for your character in the end?

                          Jason Dohring: Rob called me. He was like, "We're going to do this. I feel like we're far enough along now," and he started to lay out the story of where Logan was. His idea was Veronica's in a bad place, we're going to see her move from there and into a different state. That's the the arc. And then he said, "They're getting married. Then, Logan goes out to check the car and Logan is killed in the blast." When Rob said that, my f**king heart just fell out of my body. And I was like, "Oh my god."

                          He spent the next five minutes explaining the reasoning for it. And I cannot say that I understood or agreed with what he did. Rob wanted to shed the teenage drama aspect of the show with this on-again/off-again [relationship between Veronica and Logan] and as long as either one of them is still around, I feel like we've told those stories. They're kind of meant for each other. So I think, in that way, it's cool that Logan's exiting this way, and also that h served a role to get Veronica to reevaluate her life. I think that's really cool.

                          Rob also talked about her being an underdog and that people really respond well when she is in that sort of determined state. I think that this really throws her in that and yet opens the door to a brand new life, a brand new setting, a brand new possible list of characters that she could be involved in. It really gives freedom and determination from her point of view for a new start anywhere.

                          You mentioned that Rob called you ahead of time. How long were you sitting on this secret that Logan dies?

                          JD: Before we even started shooting, by a few weeks at least, or a month or so. You're thinking with that secret the whole time, and then just getting to the end of that four or five months of production.

                          What was your initial reaction when you learned Logan wasn't going to survive the season?

                          JD: Devastated. And then for about three days, I was sort of sitting with it, digesting it.

                          Were you mourning a little bit?

                          JD: I had a hard time telling my wife because she has certain family members -- there are family members I haven't even told yet -- who are going to see it. They're so excited, and they're having these huge parties. I'm like, "F**k. I'm really sorry." That party's going to have a sour ending, at least on my family's point of view. I eventually came to terms with it, in no small part, thanks to Rob's explanation of it, and understanding it for the greater good of the show.

                          I told a couple of the cast members who didn't even know. I told Percy [Daggs III] and I told Ryan [Hansen], and they were devastated. They'd come up to me hours later and be like, "J, I just can't believe it. Like, I just can't believe it." And I'm like, "Man, I know buddy. I know." At first, they were like, "That's bullsh*t, man. That's bullsh*t. I don't believe you." And I was like, "No man, it's true." And they just kept saying, "That's bullsh*t, man. You serious man, you f**king serious? Oh f**k." And then it hit them. It was crazy.

                          They weren't wrong!


                          Oh, but just think of all those devastated Scienos sitting in the Neopets mansion eating their crudites and watching Jason get blown up, OMB.

                          It's hard to swallow knowing that Logan's death is the catalyst for Veronica to finally make that leap and work through her inner turmoil through therapy, even though he had been pushing her all season to look inward. In that sense, Logan is a martyr. He ended up serving that purpose.

                          JD: There was another scene where we're on a couch. I don't what was understood from that scene, but I feel like Logan was, at that point, willing to sacrifice their relationship if it meant that she'd be happy with her life, and that she would move on. Maybe move out of Neptune, do something that she wants to do and fulfill her potential. I think that's pretty sweet that he would be willing to sacrifice their relationship for that. It's a heroic death that sparks new life.

                          . . .

                          Did you ever think that Veronica and Logan would ever reach a point in their lives where they would both actually agree to say "I do"?

                          JD: Hopefully, they were on that track. And I think giving Veronica that scare toward the end got her to have this mini wake-up call. But I go back to that conversation on the couch right before. I thought that was noble: I'm willing to sacrifice us, but I want you to be happy. And if you're not going to be happy, then goodbye. When I was rehearsing that scene, I was f**king crying. As much as I love you, I care more about you than that. Brutal.

                          . . .

                          You're so glass-half-full about it all, when you could be like, "Ugh."

                          JD: I know. I was like that. But if you really think about it, you can't just play that over and over. (Pauses for a moment.) I mean, you can... Part of the cool thing is Veronica Mars is a smart show. Rob is very creative and he has his ideas, and I think that people like that. At the end of the third season, the CW came up to him and said, "We're probably going to end the show at the end of this third season, so if you want to wrap it up, you can do that." And he did the exact opposite. He f**king left it open. And that's probably the reason that the movie was made, which is the reason that season four comes. Really it ties back to the creative aspect of an artist who has integrity to his vision. So I respect that and people respect the result of that, even though it's not necessarily what people want all the time.

                          If this is the end of your time with this character and the show, are you ready to say goodbye? If there is another season, do you hope there's room for you to come back in some way?

                          I think that would be a question for the team, you know what I mean? If that could fulfill any purpose in a story... I have to see what they want to do, but I assume that it would be happier times. Flashbacks to a good life? I can't really speculate, but I would hope it would be something joyous if it were to be anything.

                          Every time he opens hi mouth you can tell he's not over and will never be over it. Grrrr.

                          Tina Majorino noped right out of the revival, which looks like the right move in retrospect:


                          For the record, Thomas maintains that he wanted Majorino to be a part of Season 4. And the two actually discussed the possibility. “When we spoke, she asked me what her storyline would be, and I bluntly said, ‘Well, you won’t have your own storyline,'” Thomas recalls. “I told her that the series-regular characters are taking a backseat to the [over-arching] mystery. I don’t know if that’s why she opted out or if she had other obligations.”

                          It was the former.

                          In an exclusive statement to TVLine, Majorino confirms that she bowed out of Season 4 when it became clear that Mac was not going to be “an integral part” of the episodes.

                          “I have a very deep love for the character of Mac and my goal from the beginning has always been to give her and her trajectory the respect she deserves,” Majorino explains. “Mr. Thomas told me up front that his vision for Veronica Mars was going in a different direction and that Mac was not an integral part of this new path. I respect that greatly. When Mr. Thomas first wrote this part for me, I was an 18-year-old young lady who got to grow up playing a character I adored. She got to grow with me as did those who were watching. When he came to me with the offer for this new revival, I was excited at the prospect, just as excited as I was when the film was given the go-ahead by our wonderful fans. But the schedule reflected to me the diminished value of Mac in this new world of Veronica Mars. “There was no room for my beloved hacker queen and, as conversations continued, that only became more clear,” the actress adds. “So, I made the decision not to participate. I was so pleased with where we saw her end up in the movie that I didn’t want to demean that by making an appearance that would not satisfy me, Mac, or the viewers. I am so grateful to have been a part of this show and the subsequent film and I hope it will bring everyone involved as much success as the original. I hope that the fans understand my logic and I hope that they understand that there are worlds beyond Veronica Mars that we will all explore together in the future.”

                          'Mr. Thomas'.

                          Fans and fansites that have been around for a decade and who campaigned HARD for a revival are 'going on hiatus' or closing down or just ghosting.

                          This is pretty typical:


                          (and holy shit, I just realized they are right -- did the show totally forget that Veronica has a pysch degree when they were having her be so scornful about Therapy!Logan? Like . . . what.)

                          Are there also articles out there written by other pompous men who defend all this lazy nonsense?

                          Well, yeah, some of that. Plenty of grossness on twitter and even tumblr, but I haven't gone looking for that so specifically.

                          Salon defends the season/ending (but it's not written by a dude):


                          Naturally, Thomas kills him off. He must. As long as Logan is around, Veronica cannot evolve.

                          There are NO plans for Veronica to evolve!

                          This is the life 'shippers must have wanted for their girl and the boy who loves her. But this is not a detective’s life. It may be easy to forget that season 3 is the drama’s weakest because Thomas was encouraged to play up the series’ various romances at the expense of its cases, effectively diluting a dark, intriguing character study into another primetime teen romance.
                          Thomas could have paired these two and carried their relationship into future seasons, effectively making Veronica and Logan the modern-day equivalent of “McMillan and Wife.”

                          Alas, “Veronica Mars” never was designed to be a series about a crime-fighting couple. If one were to envision which detective its main character were to grow up to resemble, it would be “Prime Suspect” heroine Jane Tennison. And Jane is not a romantic.
                          But much of her toughness, cynicism and noir-toned outlook is inherited from Keith, a former sheriff who had grown accustomed to losing face, making him an effective private investigator. Neither Keith nor Veronica trust anyone except each other, and the series frequently finds occasion to test that bond. Ultimately in these latest episodes, that doesn’t fail. One day it, too, will be gone. Part of being an adult is accepting that nothing lasts forever and that those who guide you will one day vanish.

                          There’s a wrenching, satisfying moment in this new season when Veronica admits out loud that the two people she can’t live without are her father, Keith, and her great love, Logan. The last scenes in the finale jump ahead to a year after Logan’s death, with Veronica is still alive and very much moving forward to places and stories yet to be explored.

                          The finale leaves us to mourn what can never return and entertains a curiosity to see which mysteries are in store for Ms. Mars. It’s an unexpected denouement for a character so many love, but in the way of all great affairs, it also keeps us interested.

                          Here's a round-up of more new press reactions:

                          Vox takes a somewhat balanced approach, but dives deep into why fans are gonna more upset that they would for a show that hasn't relied so much on fandom to survive (they even use the wayback machine to dig up old TWOP posts):


                          Why the ending of the Veronica Mars revival was so shocking

                          To understand the Veronica Mars finale, you have to understand the Veronica Mars fandom.

                          . . .

                          Veronica Mars is a show so inextricably linked to its fandom that, in some ways, to talk about the show is to talk about its fans. Veronica Mars fans are so passionate and so vocal that they’ve brought the show back from the dead twice now; when it was in its first run, from 2004 to 2007, their volume and enthusiasm kept the show alive while its dismal ratings argued for cancellation. Veronica Mars has long had the kind of fandom that contemporary shows aim to cultivate in the age of social media, and it built that fandom on message boards like Television Without Pity and pre-MySpace social media platforms like LiveJournal.

                          “Because our numbers were always mediocre on Veronica Mars, it was the thing that made us feel like we were doing a good job, because there was such fervor in those postings,” Veronica Mars creator and showrunner Rob Thomas told Vox over the phone. “If the ratings weren’t making us feel great, [the TV recap website] Television Without Pity was making us feel like we were doing something right.”

                          Rob Thomas thinks the passionate fandom developed because of Veronica herself. “The thing that I think people responded to with Veronica Mars was the strength of a character who no longer cared what other people felt about her,” he says. “And that was such a powerful thing for a 16-year-old to have. I mean, how many 16-year-olds have that superpower? She had been through such a grinder that she was going to deal with high school on her own terms and own who she was and stand up for herself. And in that way, she became heroic, admirable, somebody people really responded to.”

                          Thomas knew all about the fandom because he read the boards on Television Without Pity on a regular basis. He even did occasional minor rewrites in response to what he found there. “We were a few weeks ahead of them [the fans] in terms of what we had written and were shooting, but if people were starting to look at the killer as the lead suspect, we could shine a little light away from him,” he explains. “And if fans weren’t understanding some point, we could spell it out later in the show. It was very handy. We paid a lot of attention to it.”
                          And Thomas knew exactly what the fans wanted to get out of the movie, because they were telling him all the time on social media. “I did read a bunch of the things people tweeted at me,” he told Vox. “I did have an idea of things people wanted to see, characters I wanted to get an appearance in, whether it felt extraneous or not.”

                          “There’s no way in the world we would have had a fan-funded movie and I would have killed Logan,” he added. “That would not have happened. That would have been too big of a blow.”

                          BIGGEST SIGH EVER. Did he think the fans' contractual relationship with him had ended right there? Because fans clearly didn't. They knew damn well that there would be no revival without the movie, and no movie without them, and I don't see that as an unreasonable assumption to base expectations on, right? What I keep seeing over and over are people saying that Rob SAID Veronica, Logan, and Keith were the three most important characters and what was implied was that those three were 'safe' in adfinitum. Like, that was the contract, not that Veronica and Logan would stay together 4eva.

                          Anyway, fans don't like being told that, no siree:

                          It's a lesson about NOT using fans for funding unless you are willing to keep that relationship strong pretty much forever!

                          In a way, the fan service of the movie seems to have left Thomas with little choice. What do you do once Veronica Mars and a stable and mature version of Logan Echolls are together at last?

                          “I think there’s a reason that shows are over once the two romantic leads get together happily. That’s because there’s very little to mine there. Fans don’t like it if I break apart a marriage, but where’s the stuff of drama?” Thomas says. “And if I’m going to send out Veronica on these cases, what am I doing with Logan in these episodes? Unless you’re playing a soap, what do I have to do with the husband or boyfriend of my detective? Even in these eight episodes, I had to work pretty hard to get Logan even tangentially involved in the case. I think if I keep trying to do that in future installments, it would feel phony.”

                          In theory, it was probably possible for Thomas and his creative team to keep Logan around and still turn Veronica Mars into a true mystery show. Logan could have become, say, a recurring character who would blow through town periodically to have a tumultuous on-again-off-again affair with Veronica and then immediately leave whenever he didn’t serve the story, in the same way that various Sherlock Holmes adaptations are always doing with Irene Adler. I would have enjoyed that version of the show.

                          But with that said, Thomas and the rest of the Veronica Mars writers’ room have been writing Logan as though they are bored with him for quite some time now. They write him like a character they feel they have to instead of like a character they feel is essential to the story. I can’t force a writers’ room to be interested in a character just because I am interested in that character as a fan.
                          Thomas’s argument is that keeping Veronica Mars going now means, in a sense, breaking it apart, separating the teenaged girliness of it all from the noir: keeping the PI and losing the boyfriend. That’s a dangerous move, because the alchemy between teen soap and neo-noir is part of what gave Veronica Mars its distinctive electric spark back in 2004 — but the new series makes the argument that change has to come.

                          In Veronica Mars season four, the characters who have grown, like Logan, are adults. They are aspirational. Veronica has remained static, and that is a tragedy for her, and the show knows it.

                          And if Veronica Mars the show wants to continue, it seems to be arguing, it has to change, too. That means ditching the relationship that anchored the show’s devoted fandom, the fandom that brought it back from the dead not once but twice — and the relationship that at times threatened to swallow the rest of the show whole. It means ditching the love story that built the show and broke the show.

                          I can understand Thomas’s argument with my critic brain. But my fannish heart still cries out against it.

                          NPR explores a similar theme, but really SMUGLY:


                          The Crowd Fundeth, And The Crowd Taketh Away: The 'Veronica Mars' Problem

                          . . .

                          In other words, as Thomas goes on to explain more explicitly, the project started with the fans' collectively understood wish list, and the story was backbuilt to grant those wishes. That's probably why the changes in Veronica's once bad-boy boyfriend Logan felt so unnatural — not because it seemed impossible that he could have grown, but because it felt like he had been sanded down to the point where, as I said back then, he'd become a cartoon prince.


                          You misunderstood the fans' collectively understood wish list! Raise your hand if you wouldn't have been happy having a still decently fucked up Logan in the movie! He didn't have to be a violent rage monster or still doing bum fights, but he also didn't have to be a Hallmark navy hero, either. Not if that was going to make him so boring for you to write that you would rather 'splodey him!

                          But of course, that crowdsourcing campaign ultimately killed Logan.

                          Of course, of course I am exaggerating. But what Thomas explains in the Rolling Stone interview is that he didn't think it was believable that Logan would suddenly go back to being the dark figure he had been during the run of the regular show. Not after such a makeover in the movie. Thomas wants to write real noir, he says, and you can't write real noir with a beautiful, stable relationship at the center. Once that relationship became the fantasy the people who 'ship Logan and Veronica wanted to see, the relationship couldn't be presumed to continue unless the show ended. It's less that nothing gold can stay; it's more that nothing gold is noir, which makes sense in both the language of television and the language of French.

                          This is a problem fundamental to fiction. You have to be unfulfilled until the end. It's fine to have a happy, wrapped-up conclusion at the end of a story, but you can't have one in the middle of a story. So by giving the fans the happy ending they wanted, Thomas forced it to work only as the end of the story. But he didn't actually want it to be the end of the story.

                          NOtHinG gOLd iS nOiR.

                          Holy fuck, I'm going to start slapping people in black and white.

                          This is why Logan had to die. A living cartoon prince doesn't belong in the show Thomas wants to be making, but the trauma of losing your cartoon prince does.
                          It's frustrating when you watch the season, and it's a kind of lumpy and graceless arc at times. But it all makes a certain kind of sense when you realize that the Logan and Veronica story in this season is almost entirely devoted to digging Thomas out of the hole he dug by giving the Logan/Veronica people what they wanted in the movie.

                          At the same time, while reactions are still coming in, crowdfunding also risks leading contributors to believe they've become investors entitled to a return. How do you feel today if you contributed to a movie because you wanted to see Logan and Veronica together, and now you saw him die? On another show with intense fan preferences — Jane The Virgin, for instance, where there are people who are extremely Team Michael and people who are extremely Team Rafael — you might generate a certain disgust from people who didn't get what they wanted. But you don't get the consumerism-style sense of betrayal from people who didn't get what they think they paid for.

                          Had the movie not been crowdfunded, or had Thomas not interpreted crowdfunding to mean undertaking a wish-list project, perhaps Logan would have remained a more complicated, elusive, genuinely bad-idea attachment of long standing in Veronica's life. And that would have fit perfectly into a longer noir story of a woman unable to free herself from ghosts. In other words, if he hadn't gotten so perfect, maybe he'd still be alive today. (Such a mean thing to say. So mean! Talk about unhealthy. I know.)

                          I mean . . . Rob basically made this bed by mistakenly! assuming he knew what the fans wanted and then wasn't a good enough writer to find a better way out of it than what we got. That's the tragedy right there.

                          Nobody who crowdfunded the movie is to blame for this in any real way, obviously — it's a perfectly understandable impulse to put up your own money to make way for a creator to continue a project. Who could be against such happiness, especially in this economy?

                          But as we go forward in this new environment, if more projects are funded in this way, it's going to be important for fans and creators to think beyond wish fulfillment and to the future. There are unintended consequences to upending the creator/viewer pact, which involves a delicate balance between giving you what you want and not giving you what you want, especially not giving you what you want too soon. You mess with that, and you can accidentally ... you know, blow the whole thing up.

                          It's like they are saying it's NOT our fault, and yet also saying that it's totally our fault so . . . that's great.



                          Why the Ending of the New 'Veronica Mars' Made So Many People Mad

                          . . .

                          Perhaps it's this kill-it-with-fire energy that led creator Rob Thomas and his team to the new ending, a devastating twist that quite literally immolates a central dynamic of Veronica Mars and has enraged fans in the process. It's the opposite of fan service, which comes off as both impressive and nasty.

                          . . .

                          In an interview with The New York Times, both Bell and Thomas insisted that for the series to work Veronica must not be happy. “We want to see her match lit," Bell said. "We want to keep her fight in her. When she’s truly content, the story will be over.” But instead of teasing out Veronica's demons without an explosion, Thomas found an easy way to make his heroine miserable once again for a possible season five.

                          The reactions to Logan's death have been strong, with some people praising it as a necessary evil and others despondent. I'm conflicted, frankly. There's something satisfying in seeing a male love interest as cannon fodder for the female detective, another tragedy on the way to making her more grizzled and hardened to the world.

                          Still, I can't help feeling that there was something lacking in the entire Logan and Veronica storyline that the bomb only emphasized. In an attempt to make Logan the more mature party, Thomas and his writers stripped him of his personality. Like Veronica, I missed the fizzle of their interactions, and, like Bell and Thomas, I didn't want wedded bliss for her. The disappointment wasn't that Logan dies, but that he dies as a way to deprive Veronica of a perfect man. Because that's the thing: Logan was never perfect.

                          So yeah, same thing . . . Rob messed up Logan and then couldn't fix him. But you know, we made him do that, so . . .

                          The Observer doesn't even address the ending at all, but didn't love the season very much:


                          ‘Veronica Mars’ Fares Better Than Most Reboots, But It Still Let Us Down

                          . . .

                          Bluntly, the new season of Veronica Mars isn’t awful but there are so many wasted opportunities, obnoxious character shifts, bizarrely introduced and undeveloped plots, a boring and needlessly complicated mystery and an approach to race that is offensive at worst and questionable at best. It is, arguably, better than the last two seasons but it’s also true that those seasons weren’t exactly great. Season 4 is a far cry from the immediacy and charm of Season 1, though there are, at least, some bright spots.

                          . . .

                          The big mystery that runs throughout the whole season is about a serial bomber in Neptune who is murdering spring breakers. The first bomb targets a seaside motel, killing several notable people in the process, and thrusts Veronica (and her father) into a larger mystery arc that, sadly, bores more than it enthralls. It starts off intriguing but this wears off as the episodes go on—it’s a shame that a show so built on mysteries and noir instincts has crafted a whodunnit where, well, you don’t actually care whodidit.

                          . . .

                          Veronica Mars does fare better than most series that have been brought back to life. But, like the majority of them, it feels like a shell of itself or like a rookie spec script. The pieces are there, but rather than having been patiently put together, they’ve instead been shoved in to fit wherever, regardless of how the finished product comes across. The episodes lack the distinct shine that made us fans in the first place. But it’s easier to focus on the bad parties—it should be said that it’s still full of wonderful performances, hints at greatness that help sail things forward, and small, lovely character moments. Sometimes, it feels similar to returning back to a cozy home after a stressful vacation—but after a few days, you’re itching to leave again.


                          Comicsbeat asks an important question:


                          On Veronica Mars, “Strong Female Protagonists,” and why male showrunners are obsessed with traumatizing young women

                          . . .

                          Veronica Mars, for all its genre trappings as a teen show that attempted to grow up, the same way its characters had, seems to be stuck in this age-old idea that the only way women can be strong is for them to experience trauma, over and over and over again, and still manage to get out of bed each morning.

                          . . .

                          In the voicemail, left by Logan the day of his and Veronica’s wedding, he says, “Is it weird to want to marry someone because you respect her? Because you want to be like her? Because you want children who will inherit her qualities? I want to marry Veronica because she’s the toughest human being I’ve ever met. Blows that would destroy most people — she always picks herself back up.”

                          Is it bold for Thomas to have a character outright state his apparent mission statement for categorizing Veronica as a Strong Female Protagonist? Not really. If anything, it just serves to solidify how out of touch he and other writers — including women like Suzanne Collins, the author of The Hunger Games — tend to be when it comes to writing these narratives.

                          Trauma happens. Sometimes, it happens repeatedly. For those of us who suffer blow after blow, getting out of bed in the morning is sometimes the most we can manage. Sometimes we’re triggered by little, unexpected things, like the smell of someone’s perfume on the subway or the sound of someone’s voice in the grocery store. Veronica, for all of her trauma, seems to compartmentalize to the point that she can move through each day without ever pausing to think about anything she’s been dealt. Not only is that unrealistic, it’s insulting. It’s insulting to her character and to those who identify with her.

                          And she’s not the only one. Too often, characters like Veronica and Buffy are heralded as Triumphs of Feminism because they’re badass and because they lead their lives with strength and resilience. But seeing these characters be repeatedly ripped to shreds, then forced to move forward without any real exploration of what that means or how it will look for them, does a disservice to the writing, the writers themselves and, as always, the audience.

                          Overcoming repeated trauma isn’t the only way to be strong. Stable relationships and contentment do not render stories or characters uninteresting or useless. Romance isn’t just for teenagers and growing up doesn’t have to happen through a series of horrifying experiences that change us forever. So Rob Thomas, if you’re reading this: do better. And to all the other storytellers who believe this trope has to be the focal point of their work: it doesn’t. It shouldn’t be.

                          It’s time to tell new stories.

                          Last edited by ophy; 07-23-2019, 01:20 PM.


                          • HOLY FUCKING SHIT, I forgot about her going to Stanford to get a psych. But so did the writers, which is WAY WORSE.

                            Thank you for the round up and FUCK LINDA HOLMES FOREVER. We already know she sucks and is a terrible liar and an asshole and I am mad I clicked on that link b/c I try very hard not to give her my clicks!

                            I feel like all the talk about killing the teen drama angle is gross. I was an adult when this show first aired. The "teen drama" shit was written better than the mysteries. It feels insulting to teen girls and to the things they like and also to women and fans of stories about interpersonal relationship stuff to dismiss that as the shitty part of the show. It's also an insane thing to say given that nobody in the world was like: MAN, why can't they just stick to those sweet, sweet mysteries of the week! That's where the meat of the show is!

                            OH, and now that I know how Rob Thomas feels about me? I'd never contribute to another kickstarter for this shit.

                            And seeing JDoh cry about this was BRUTAL.
                            It’s just really honestly so tiring and emotionally draining to have to get upset over reality constantly.


                            • Everything about this is both insulting and baffling. Also, at least half of the noir movies I have seen (and I've seen plenty actually) have happy endings. The detective starts jaded and disillusioned and either end ups hopeful or more jaded and disillusioned. It can go both ways!


                              • Thank you for the round up and FUCK LINDA HOLMES FOREVER.
                                I always forget that Miss Ally exists and then she reappears to be awful. Why she continues to be paid as a writer is beyond me.